tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5596708332568087278.post5448641984868911260..comments2024-01-24T10:39:27.668-05:00Comments on Coming Untrue: Mr. MacArthur, Please Find a Different VerseDr. S. L. Andersonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06303707167715370504noreply@blogger.comBlogger8125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5596708332568087278.post-53648096999456529492016-01-21T15:56:28.405-05:002016-01-21T15:56:28.405-05:00A secular sociologist's analysis of how Calvin...A secular sociologist's analysis of how Calvinism understands the "Perseverance of the Saints" doctrine:<br /><br />"Thus, however useless good works might be as a means of attaining salvation, for even the elect remain beings of the flesh, and everything they do falls infinitely short of divine standards, nevertheless, they are indispensable as a sign of election. They are the technical means, not of purchasing salvation, but of getting rid of the fear of damnation. In this sense they are occasionally referred to as directly necessary for salvation or the possessio salutis is made conditional on them. <br /><br />In practice this means that God helps those who help themselves. Thus the Calvinist, as it is sometimes put, himself creates his own salvation, or, as would be more correct, the conviction of it."<br /><br />Quoted from Max Weber, The Protestant Ethic, Ch. 4. (1905)Immanuel Canhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11580529966007662214noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5596708332568087278.post-17464248630622217702016-01-06T11:53:09.581-05:002016-01-06T11:53:09.581-05:00"If you are concerned whether or not you are ...<b>"If you are concerned whether or not you are one of the elect, then you probably are one of the elect, so stop worrying."</b><br /><br />I have heard this almost word for word.Tomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00346761712248157930noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5596708332568087278.post-65984986924065207392016-01-06T11:34:59.052-05:002016-01-06T11:34:59.052-05:00Assurance of salvation was a perennial problem of ...Assurance of salvation was a perennial problem of the Puritans. A common pastoral care problem was "Am I one of the elect?". Every errant thought or deed brought into question one's salvation: the best developed response was "If you are concerned whether or not you are one of the elect, then you probably are one of the elect, so stop worrying." Not very sound, and yes, MacArthur would be a child of the Puritans. Same set of problems. I am a well wisher of the Reformed, I think that the Reformation provided a set of badly needed correctives in the history of the church. But it is also not the origination of all good doctrine and deserves to be examined closely. I appreciate your response to Mr MacArthur, Tom, it helps me reread this passage contextually and appreciate its intent and meaning in new ways. <br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5596708332568087278.post-82731192009629948702016-01-04T20:15:59.121-05:002016-01-04T20:15:59.121-05:00Mr. MacArthur is not at all shy about his Calvinis...Mr. MacArthur is not at all shy about his Calvinism. Look him up, and you'll see, Q. Try https://www.gty.org/resources/articles/10194<br /><br />As a Calvinist, he's not trying to be sinister. He thinks he's right, actually, and he thinks that he's doing us all a favour by the way he tries to use the verse Tom cites above. But as you can see, Mr. MacArthur is simply misreading, and his doctrine is incorrect.<br /><br />It's really that simple.Immanuel Canhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11580529966007662214noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5596708332568087278.post-53296167394158192642016-01-04T18:48:05.067-05:002016-01-04T18:48:05.067-05:00Based on your comments I reread his article and am...Based on your comments I reread his article and am not sure I see it the same way as you do. I also read IC's comment concerning John MacArthur being in a Calvinist camp and therefore intending with his article to generate a perpetual state of self-doubt in the practicing (Calvinist?) Christian. If a Calvinist, that would make this suspect. However, since that seems speculative, I can't go with that. My impression is that he is more or less putting together a cookbook recipe, a condensed set of steps, of how to be successful as a Christian, which is actually not a bad idea since most people probably could use a short-cut to the lengthy Bible material. Also, it could be that he is simply frustrated, like many are today, with the way liberty is being taken with Christian teaching and practice as society slides more and more into self-centered secularism and that is the reason for his call for self-doubt on our part. I do agree that he should not urge anyone to doubt their salvation since no one can know. But he is certainly correct in pointing out that Christ conveyed specific thoughts about behavior that can make it more difficult to be saved. So, without further information I can't necessarily assign a sinister motive to his article or even just say that he is being sloppy.Qmannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5596708332568087278.post-84097489907163310352016-01-04T15:11:07.223-05:002016-01-04T15:11:07.223-05:00Q, I agree with you that MacArthur is not concerne...Q, I agree with you that MacArthur is not concerned with making a statement about Christian orthodoxy. He doesn’t even consider the orthodoxy question in the context of this passage. <br /><br />Further, I agree with you that an examination of the events of any day with respect to sin that may have gone unconfessed or amends that may need to be made is a valuable exercise, and one that I engage in regularly. But that really is not what Mr. MacArthur is advocating. If he were, I wouldn’t be bothered at all.<br /><br />He’s wanting us to ask ourselves whether or not we are saved in the first place.<br /><br />The evidence? First paragraph: “Are you <b>a Christian</b>?” and then later on, “You need to face the fact that <b>you may not be a Christian</b>”. Third paragraph: “If you want to know <b>if you're a Christian</b> ...” Fourth paragraph: “profess that <b>they know God</b>, but in works they deny him”. Fifth paragraph: “those who are <b>genuinely saved</b>” and “<b>true believer</b>”. And so on throughout.<br /><br />So he’s pretty explicit about the point he is trying to make and it’s really not what you are taking from it. As I say, I have no objection to a bedtime review of the day before God.Tomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00346761712248157930noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5596708332568087278.post-68181398590039579132016-01-04T14:21:17.119-05:002016-01-04T14:21:17.119-05:00Your analysis here, in my opinion, and as usual, i...Your analysis here, in my opinion, and as usual, is spot on, except with the following caveat, namely, when seen from your perspective or vantage point.<br /><br />I think you are missing the point that Mr. John MacArthur is trying to make. I think his point is actually more practical about how to live your faith and less about making a statement about Christian orthodoxy. I agree with your analysis that the apostle Paul probably meant to refer to the plural of the Corinthian Church and apostle groups more than to the individual. But I think that that is not what John MacArthur meant to discuss and he may think what is good for the goose is good for the gander in that if it's good in the larger context then it's also good for the individual. As part of that then he introduces themes on how to live your life as a Christian individual (extrapolating from the recommendations for the group). In other words you are arguing past each other.<br /><br />I have the impression that you tend to be a bit too hyper tuned to defend the orthodoxy that 'works don't save' and he was not really addressing that point but rather that we all have to put our best foot forward (true for Christian and secular folks) and if we don't there can/will be consequences. For example, I was taught at night before going to rest to make an examination of conscience concerning the events of the day and address my insights in prayer and by forming intentions of correcting faults. At no time will I (or would anyone else, I think) assume that I now contributed towards purchasing my salvation. No one can know, if having any sense, where you stand in that department. I would suggest though that both must be accommodated in a sound orthodoxy (a. the significance of faith and b. the significance of acting on it on an individual as well as in a communal setting) without getting side tracked by the 'who gets saved' argument.Qmannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5596708332568087278.post-79757241958944159432016-01-04T07:09:51.368-05:002016-01-04T07:09:51.368-05:00John MacArthur is, of course, one of the Calvinist...John MacArthur is, of course, one of the Calvinist club. Because of this, he believes fervently in an idea called "The Perseverance of the Saints." He believes that Christians are obligated to conduct a life of nervous introspection, looking into themselves personally for signs of "election," meaning proof that they have been (as he would understand it) arbitrarily chosen by God before time began to be saved, and worrying that maybe they're actually lost. Thus a lifetime of miserable and inconclusive self-absorption is the penalty for buying in to "TULIP" Calvinism. And it is for this reason that he needs this verse very badly; he is misusing it to sponsor this unscriptural doctrine.<br /><br />He's a good case study here in the human propensity to read into Scripture whatever one is already looking for. Thanks, Tom, for the reminder that both context and an attentive, correctable mind are essential to correct reading of Scripture. I suspect your exposition may prove very helpful to anyone misled by this errant doctrine or made miserable by the abuse of this passage.Immanuel Canhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11580529966007662214noreply@blogger.com