tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5596708332568087278.post5412049607572703072..comments2024-01-24T10:39:27.668-05:00Comments on Coming Untrue: Too Hot to Handle: Bucking or Buckling?Dr. S. L. Andersonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06303707167715370504noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5596708332568087278.post-91000366463713445922016-05-24T22:03:04.278-04:002016-05-24T22:03:04.278-04:00"Criminals in power"...you mean like Ner..."Criminals in power"...you mean like Nero, Caesar or Pilate? Or like those manifest hypocrites, the Pharisees and Sadducees? Were not those the very cases in hand when the Lord (and the apostle Paul) spoke of these things?<br /><br />Let's put it another way, Q: do you believe that God is telling the truth when He says, "Vengeance is Mine...I will repay." (Rm. 12:19) And do you believe that the Lord is telling us the right thing to do when he says that His Kingdom is not of this world, or that the Father has given to the Son all rights to judge? (John 5:22)<br /><br />You see, if we don't really believe that justice is in the hands of God...if that's just a nice, religious phrase, a warm thought with no reality standing behind it, then I guess you're right...human beings have to create their own justice, because no higher power exists to do it. And then we would also have to say that no authorities are ordained by God, despite Romans 13:1 saying that they are. So it's up to us, end of story. And, of course, that is exactly what the common-sense view of (perhaps democratic) humanity tells us on the subject.<br /><br />But if we now we have actually decided that we believe that no Higher Power exists, or that He is ineffectual, and justice is in our own hands, or if we conclude that authorities exist only by our permission so we have every right to raise them up and cast them down ourselves, or worse -- that the Lord didn't really mean what He said -- then we must wonder in what sense can we possibly call our view "Christian" anymore.<br /><br />I can think of none.Immanuel Canhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11580529966007662214noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5596708332568087278.post-62039198537645348212016-05-24T12:19:57.646-04:002016-05-24T12:19:57.646-04:00Please also review the Just War Doctrine here:
ht...Please also review the Just War Doctrine here:<br /><br />https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just_war_theory<br /><br />From that:<br /><br />The Episcopal bishop of New York, William Manning said the following:<br /><br />"Our Lord Jesus Christ does not stand for peace at any price...Every true American would rather see this land face war than see her flag lowered in dishonor...I wish to say that, not only from the standpoint of a citizen, but from the standpoint of a minister of religion...I believe there is nothing that would be of such great practical benefit to us as universal military training for the men of our land.<br /><br />If by Pacifism is meant the teaching that the use of force is never justifiable, then, however well meant, it is mistaken, and it is hurtful to the life of our country. And the Pacifism which takes the position that because war is evil, therefore all who engage in war, whether for offense or defense, are equally blameworthy, and to be condemned, is not only unreasonable, it is inexcusably unjust."Qmannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5596708332568087278.post-72011890553890640442016-05-24T12:03:27.222-04:002016-05-24T12:03:27.222-04:00Tom, I developed my point the way I did precisely ...Tom, I developed my point the way I did precisely to answer that question. Please review my previous comment on how such heads of state (authority) are no better than common criminals who simply managed to get into a position of authority. Again,<br /><br />"Hence, the earthly authorities, after learning that they now have to deal with this (criminal) person as a head of state, are relegated to impotence and are unable to pursue justice (in the form of a drone strike, e.g.). Including myself I think most people will consider this (basically accurate) scenario to be completely unacceptable."<br /><br />Are you seriously suggesting that Christ was recommending to let criminals rule societies and we are to be patsies, and submit to their shenanigans? I for one consider that interpretation to be incorrect. His recommendations were clearly with concern about the safety of the fledgling church and followers at that time and not a fixed set of rules to have every criminal who happens to get into power willy-nilly lord it over you. Qmannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5596708332568087278.post-81700757349141244532016-05-24T09:40:04.782-04:002016-05-24T09:40:04.782-04:00So, just to clarify, Christ came and he was “speci...So, just to clarify, Christ came and he was “special” and all that, but his followers are (a) not to emulate him in his submission to authority (John 19:10-11) and (b) not to obey his words or the words of his apostles about submitting (Romans 13:1-7; 1 Peter 2:13-17).<br /> <br />That about cover it?Tomnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5596708332568087278.post-6842538687009572442016-05-23T22:08:13.236-04:002016-05-23T22:08:13.236-04:00Not being British I am easily confused when someon...Not being British I am easily confused when someone quotes Shakespeare. To me he is almost totally obtuse and I prefer straight talk. I do like some of my desert with whipped cream but that is probably not what he means :). <br /><br />Could not disagree more and we'll have to leave it at that. As I see it Christ was on a very special mission completely outside the norm of human conduct where not demonstrating superior force and abilities was very important and really needed, something completely outside the box. Again, to me that does not translate to abdicating normal human conduct and management of human affairs, because life must go on, And yes, part of the latter is definitely to go after the bad guys and as hard and fast as you can. Unfortunately, that's where individuals and societies often go wrong. I am all for preventing Pol Pots, Hitlers, Stalins, genocide in Africa, Kurdistan and so on. And I do value a reasonably decent human judicial system (always imperfect) that implements human justice as best as it can be done. Nevertheless I understand where you are coming from but think that it has only limited applicability here, up to a certain point depending on the situation and no more than that. Qmannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5596708332568087278.post-27148511371571803802016-05-23T12:57:24.478-04:002016-05-23T12:57:24.478-04:00And yet we follow the Man who said, "My kingd...And yet we follow the Man who said, "My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would be fighting so that I would not be handed over to the Jews; but as it is, My kingdom is not of this realm.”<br /><br />If you recall, He was standing before Pilate and the religious authorities, about to go to the cross. <br /><br />There never was a greater injustice perpetrated by less-admirably authorities than that one, I think you'd agree. And still, we have his example as our direction on the matter. And I don't think I, or anyone else, has ever suffered injustice on that scale, so I think we should be content to wait for true justice as administered by the Judge of the World when He comes again, don't you? For then it will all be set to right. <br /><br />And that is why we don't panic now, don't take up the sword on our own behalf or claim that justice must be served this minute. <br /><br />Moreover, are you sure that justice is really what you want? After all, you and I are still depending on His mercy, aren't we? So what is the cost to us of insisting on justice this minute, on our own terms? As Hamlet said, "Use every man after his desert, and who should 'scape whipping?"<br /><br />We really don't have the credentials to set up our own conception of justice today. Nor do we have authorization from the ultimate Authority. So let's not.Immanuel Canhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11580529966007662214noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5596708332568087278.post-89937149749527511752016-05-23T12:24:26.165-04:002016-05-23T12:24:26.165-04:00"Their Heads of State status should be ignore..."Their Heads of State status should be ignored as sham and they should meet the fate of any criminal. Ideally all persons and nations should cooperate in that endeavor. This is all within accepted rules and expectations of the human legal system. There is no compelling reason to abdicate any of that under any circumstances.*<br /><br />I mean for this to apply especially to your current ruler (government), not only rulers of other nations. And it should apply equally to all nations since everyone deserves a chance at a decent government. I interprete Christ's exhortation therefore to be universal and not only local.Qmannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5596708332568087278.post-57129571121912113052016-05-22T23:02:40.719-04:002016-05-22T23:02:40.719-04:00Everything we were discussing had to do with how a...Everything we were discussing had to do with how a Christian ought to respond to the government of the country in which he lives, which is what both the Lord and Paul were speaking/writing about.<br /><br />None of it has to do with how the heads of state of one sovereign nation decide to respond to the head of state of another sovereign nation. I don't believe either the Lord or the apostles ever commented on such a thing.Tomnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5596708332568087278.post-18316011825209941652016-05-22T22:29:00.212-04:002016-05-22T22:29:00.212-04:00I was not suggesting that any foreign heads of Sta...I was not suggesting that any foreign heads of State has any influence or authority over you but rather that we should exert our authority over them if they are the criminal kind. Their Heads of State status should be ignored as sham and they should meet the fate of any criminal. Ideally all persons and nations should cooperate in that endeavor. This is all within accepted rules and expectations of the human legal system. There is no compelling reason to abdicate any of that under any circumstances. However, because that can endanger people if they live under such a ruler or government Christ suggested that to some extent we still cooperate where feasible. I do not interpret that as a card blanch for evil rulers or a prohibition against a call to arms against those individuals when justified. I also do not see this as a call by God to not implement our judicial norms if they conform to the Judeo Christian ideals. Your presentation <br />struck me as not offering to implement human justice as a viable and often necessary option given the right circumstances. If you feel that such an option is never justified or feasible for a Christian then we would have a big disagreement. Qmannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5596708332568087278.post-67362844518937526312016-05-22T10:49:55.481-04:002016-05-22T10:49:55.481-04:00One of the distinctions between Christian "ju...One of the distinctions between Christian "justice" and secular "social justice" is that whereas the latter looks to human ingenuity -- in particular, to rebellion and to the seizing of the tools of government -- to force its conception of justice to become reality, the former takes into account the sovereign authority of God.<br /><br />Inability to wait for some conception of "justice" is the hallmark of those who do not believe in God. The bowing to the choices made by God is the hallmark of the believer. If Paul could enjoin Christians to obedience when Nero was in power, and Christ could to it in regard to Caesar, we know that Christians do not need to contest political power with despots. Instead, they pray, since they know that God is able to raise up and depose powers at will.<br /><br />Only when a matter pertaining to God Himself, and to our prior obedience to Him is implicated do we refuse an evil ruler. Knowing when to bow and when to fight takes the discernment of the Spirit. Good thing He's real too.<br /><br />So do we believe God is real, and do we believe His Spirit is there to give us the discernment we need? And do we really believe the ultimate justice of God is coming, or do we feel we need to assure our justice happens now? <br /><br />I guess one of the ways we find out is how we respond to authorities with whom we have reason to find fault.Immanuel Canhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11580529966007662214noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5596708332568087278.post-68876438590839563102016-05-22T06:31:26.941-04:002016-05-22T06:31:26.941-04:00Not so, Q. Scripture teaches that Christians are t...Not so, Q. Scripture teaches that Christians are to be subject to the authorities that are <i>over them</i>. Just as my kids are not subject to my neighbour's whims, a head of state in another country has no authority whatsoever over a Canadian. For example, Barack Obama is not MY president and I have no obligation to obey his edicts or the edicts of the U.S. government unless I put my foot on U.S. soil.<br /><br />Still less do other heads of state around the world have any kind of obligation to allow a tyrant to continue to rule another nation, especially non-Christian heads of state, which is most of them (though they may elect to respect a nation's sovereignty for other compelling reasons).<br /><br />Thus I'd suggest the problem you're concerned about doesn't exist for the Christian anymore than it does for the pagan.Tomnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5596708332568087278.post-45364887683801893782016-05-21T23:14:37.429-04:002016-05-21T23:14:37.429-04:00What you are suggesting in your discussion is actu...What you are suggesting in your discussion is actually quite disturbing. Let me explain how. Assume there was a capital crime committed in your immediate neighborhood, e.g., murder (or in any other neighborhood in the nation). In that case, living in a decent democracy, you have certain expectations of what should happen next. <br />You fully expect of the authorities to search for and pursue the criminal even to the end of the globe (via Interpol, e.g.). And if caught you expect the criminal to be brought to justice. Now, assume that the criminal is not caught but instead is able to hide even while in the public eye and eventually even is able by deception to rise through the ranks as a politician and become leader of the country he/she escaped to. Being a criminal he continues to devolve into a cruel and murderous despot, similar to what we had or have in current times in many nations. <br /><br />Now based on what you said, such persons are allowed to be in place by God since their authority, like any other, can only derive through acquiescence by God, the author of all authority. Hence, the earthly authorities, after learning that they now have to deal with this person as a head of state, are relegated to impotence and are unable to pursue justice (in the form of a drone strike, e.g.). Including myself I think most people will consider this (basically accurate) scenario to be completely unacceptable. At the same time in a dichotomous way, if something were done about it, as with Saddam Hussein, many will oppose applying justice. Hence injustice is allowed to flourish with the consequence that it can rear its ugly head anywhere in any society including our cherished democracy as it is beginning to do so now especially against those who follow Christ. So the answer is not as you suggest to practice and teach your justice in private while going along with public injustice.Qmannoreply@blogger.com